tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post116576867041757345..comments2023-12-31T01:23:39.943-05:00Comments on Mayerson on Animation: The Importance of SympathyMark Mayersonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00065971589878678848noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-36516307838989417642007-04-12T05:09:00.000-04:002007-04-12T05:09:00.000-04:00I too, have just blogged about this article on a t...I too, have just blogged about this article on a the <A HREF="http://animationwriters.blogspot.com/2007/04/mayerson-on-sympathy.html" REL="nofollow">Animation Writers Blog</A>. I've reread this piece a few times and wanted to share.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166539452678417742006-12-19T09:44:00.000-05:002006-12-19T09:44:00.000-05:00Hi Mr Mayerson,I've just posted your blog on this ...Hi Mr Mayerson,<BR/><BR/>I've just posted your blog on this forum:<BR/>http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1105660<BR/><BR/>An interesting rebuttal from this discussion; it's not sympathy, it's empathy.<BR/><BR/>Empathy is more powerful than sympathy can express, so they say.<BR/><BR/>Would you agree to that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166121803886633762006-12-14T13:43:00.000-05:002006-12-14T13:43:00.000-05:00Red Pill and Benjamin have got a good point, talki...Red Pill and Benjamin have got a good point, talking about villains. One of the "basic principles of animation" according to Thomas & Johnston was APPEAL. A character mst have appeal... yes, sure, but... how do we get this!?<BR/><BR/>I think this is the most difficult of the principles to explain. I personally have lots of trouble explaining that to students. They easily understand physical concepts like squash, stretch and drag... but how do you create appeal? There is no correct formula, it is a myriad of factors... every audience will respond in a different way to certain elements... there's design, color, voice acting...<BR/><BR/>Whoever discovers a 100% fail-proof formula to achieve character appeal that doesn't fade over time, will get filthy reach :)Locadora do Werneckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04185765892519877827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166118515383481082006-12-14T12:48:00.000-05:002006-12-14T12:48:00.000-05:00I think when Hollywood grudgindly accepts that ani...I think when Hollywood grudgindly accepts that animation is a medium which does not necessarily have to teach a moral lesson for five year-olds, that we will begin to see more rich and complex characters. Is it impossible to make an animation movie in the vein of Scorsese and Tarantino, where ALL the characters are "villains" yet we sympathize with them nonetheless? Quentin Disney, are you out there listening???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166106105513104102006-12-14T09:21:00.000-05:002006-12-14T09:21:00.000-05:00Red Pill Junkie, villains are treated very much li...Red Pill Junkie, villains are treated very much like supporting characters in that they're all personality without having a character arc. They can be wildly exaggerated in their behavior because the story never has to have them evolve into something else.<BR/><BR/>I have sympathy for Captain Hook because he's lost a hand and he's attempting to get even for it. Also, Peter Pan is a self-involved show-off and brat. I never found him a particulary appealing character.<BR/><BR/>But I don't have any sympathy for Cruella. She is very typical of Disney villains in that her main attribute is selfishness. She is willing to hurt others in order to get what she wants. The same is true for the Queen in Snow White, Stromboli and the Coachman in Pinocchio, the stepmother in Cinderella, Shere Khan in Jungle Book, Prince John in Robin Hood, Hades in Hercules, etc.<BR/><BR/>As we're all selfish to a degree and might be willing to trample anyone standing in the way of our desires, we automatically empathize with villains because we identify with that attitude. But I don't think that we automatically sympathize with them. We rarely see them as being justified in what they want in animated films because morality is at a level that has to be understood by three-year-olds. That's a subject for a whole other essay.<BR/><BR/>Izzy, I don't think that the beast is a villain. The whole point of the film is that he appears to be one but isn't. <BR/><BR/>Mike Caracappa, the nature of conflict is always character vs. character, character vs. circumstances or character vs. self. Of course, it can be more than one at a time. North American animated films tend to be character vs. character, though there are exceptions. Toy Story is character vs. character but also character vs. self as you point out. Miyazaki sometimes makes films that are character vs. circumstances (Kiki's Delivery Service and My Neighbor Totoro), which is one reason his films are so refreshing.<BR/><BR/>Brian Tieman, one of the greatest lines in film history is from Renoir's Rules of the Game when Octave says, "The horrible thing about life is that everyone has his reasons." There have been animated films where villains are given flimsy reasons and others where they're given good reasons. I once said that the difference between films for adults and films for children is that adult films have no villains, just people with conflicting goals. Using that definition, very few animated films meet the standard of being for adults.Mark Mayersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00065971589878678848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166104788687638692006-12-14T08:59:00.000-05:002006-12-14T08:59:00.000-05:00Excellent post! There's a lot of stuff in there th...Excellent post! There's a lot of stuff in there that I knew subconsciously, but never really connected it all. Iron Giant is an interesting example because we are sympathetic to Hogarth, but also to the Giant. Even though he has his "evil killing machine" moments, we know that he is truly a good creature. And when he sacrifices himself to save the town and Hogarth...well I think it's one of the best animated sequences ever. <BR/><BR/>Compare this to Hercules, who sacrifices his powers/life to save Meg. We don't really care! It's because he's a self-absorbed jerk! And instead of feeling happy that he sees the error of his ways, we feel like he deserves whatever he gets. I'd love to hear more about this subject!Bill Robinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06559832218267916942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166083162983126072006-12-14T02:59:00.000-05:002006-12-14T02:59:00.000-05:00I think two characters that help break the mold ar...I think two characters that help break the mold are Woody and Buzz, and we sympathize with them because the injustice's they face are coming from themselves. Woody reacts out of fear that Andy might not love him anymore, and later Buzz's entire belief system fails him. It's interesting that Izzy points out a kind of similarity with Frollo in that both characters from Toy Story become deprived of love. The only difference is that Woody and Buzz manage to grow beyond themselves and find their way back to Andy, who loved them all along. I think it shows that characters don't always need outside forces attacking them in order for us to feel sympathy. Showing a character that has to struggle with themselves not only breaks a common cliche, but can lead to a much deeper and more meaningful experience.Mike Caracappahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03130773711438017718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166069748340896842006-12-13T23:15:00.000-05:002006-12-13T23:15:00.000-05:00In the Hunchback of Notre-Dame, I felt like Frollo...In the Hunchback of Notre-Dame, I felt like Frollo was the character I most sympathized with. It's and odd case, but as you've pointed out, he is being deprived of love, and in a way, has been a victim of an extreme brand of religiousity. And there's also the Beast in Beauty and the Beast. Two best'villians' ever.Isabellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11655215223546267331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166061910043875182006-12-13T21:05:00.000-05:002006-12-13T21:05:00.000-05:00Very interesting. BUT you left something important...Very interesting. BUT you left something important to consider about feeling empathy towards animation characters? Villains. <BR/><BR/>They are not helpless, and are often portrayed caring for nothing except their selfish interests. Yet why are there villain characters that are so memorable, and sometimes even more appealling to the audience that the "heroes". From the classic characters I can think of course of Capt. Hook, Cruella Deville, etc. Even in more modern films like Hercules I think the viewer "connects" more with Hades than with the hero of the story! Why is that? Maybe it's because the directors use the villains as a resource for comedy relief, but there has to be more than that. I think perhaps villains that remind us of our own defects but portrayed them in a comic manner appeal to us and "feel" more real than heroes, like Jack Nicholson as the Joker, who makes a far better job than Keaton as Batman. After all, isn't it true than in life we are used to expect the worst from people? but in the movies at least evil actions are shown to entertain us!<BR/><BR/>Also, I'm betting most animators have more fun working with the villains in a feature, am I right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166052063341131322006-12-13T18:21:00.000-05:002006-12-13T18:21:00.000-05:00Gleason himself relied on the character of Ed Nort...Gleason himself relied on the character of Ed Norton, embodied by the great Art Carney, to cut some of the cruelty of his own Ralph Kramden. <BR/><BR/>Tom MintonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1166016916556791802006-12-13T08:35:00.000-05:002006-12-13T08:35:00.000-05:00Agreed!Groucho, himself, acknowledged that Thalbur...Agreed!<BR/><BR/>Groucho, himself, acknowledged that Thalburg was the only one who ever knew what to do with the team!<BR/><BR/>I think Jackie was getting at Groucho's comedic personna, specifically. And keep in mind, Jackie was known for drinking quite a bit...Craig Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09411024383213082193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1165961956281141972006-12-12T17:19:00.000-05:002006-12-12T17:19:00.000-05:00Craig, MGM tried their best to make the Marx Bros....Craig, MGM tried their best to make the Marx Bros. sympathetic by having them work on the side of true love in A Night at the Opera and to save a sanitarium in A Day at the Races. Irving Thalberg made the Marxes altruists specifically because he felt that the audience (and especially women) didn't care about them unless their antics had a point that the audience was sympathetic to.<BR/><BR/>These days, many people prefer the more anarchic Paramount Marx films over the often sappy MGM films, but at the time, the MGM films were more successful at the box office.Mark Mayersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00065971589878678848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1165950261669529322006-12-12T14:04:00.000-05:002006-12-12T14:04:00.000-05:00Great post.Jackie Gleason made a similar observati...Great post.<BR/><BR/>Jackie Gleason made a similar observation that comedic actors all needed to elicit the audience's sympathy. He noted one exception: Grouch Marx. "He didn'te need it!" was his comment.Craig Dhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09411024383213082193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1165787709259825492006-12-10T16:55:00.000-05:002006-12-10T16:55:00.000-05:00In the case of Lilo and Stitch, the two titular ch...In the case of Lilo and Stitch, the two titular characters and Lilo's older sister are all sympathetic, for the same reasons you cited above.<BR/><BR/>Lilo's a victim of teasing and rejection because she's "different." Arguably she is a very strange little girl, but it's clear that she does not understand that her actions are strange, only that others think she's "different." Her parents died in a tragic accident and her older sister is struggling to take care of her.<BR/><BR/>Lilo is also altruistic--Stitch is a nasty little monster at first but Lilo continues to care for him and trust that he's really decent.<BR/><BR/>Getting stuck being a "mother" at a young age was unjust for Lilo's older sister, who also has difficulty getting and keeping a job because of Stitch. Child protective services threatens to take Lilo away from her, an injustice that involves breaking a family bond.<BR/><BR/>Stitch, well, starts out unsympathetic. You want him to get caught. He can't help that he's destructive, though--he was made that way. After some time spent with Lilo, he begins to understand the concept of family, at which point he becomes a helpless victim. He begins to want a family (implied: a family that is like him) but he can't find one. At the end he becomes altruistic, risking his life to save Lilo.<BR/><BR/>It isn't just the fact that Lilo is a child that makes her sympathetic. That movie fits pretty snugly into the model you described.Krishvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16937180031573836295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27501132.post-1165783792805767122006-12-10T15:49:00.000-05:002006-12-10T15:49:00.000-05:00Great posts and great insights. Talking about Trea...Great posts and great insights. Talking about Treasure Planet and Hercules... I found it interesting that the characters who I cared for most, respectively Silver and Meg, started out as villains (trying to look sympathetic to hide the truth).<BR/><BR/>I also feel that a sense of real-life adds to the sympathy towards the characters. Take Iron Giant... we already care for Hogarth before he even meets the giant, even though he is really (really) active. He just feels a lot more like an actual kid then in most animated films, is a lot of fun, and is placed in a completely recognizable environment.Benjamin De Schrijverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04113326323094548928noreply@blogger.com